Summarizer

Operation Legitimacy Debate

Maduro's legitimacy questions, international law violations, just war principles, internal collaboration theories, negotiated exit speculation

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The discussion surrounding the operation to remove Maduro oscillates between theories of a pre-negotiated exit and claims of internal betrayal, with many pointing to the striking lack of military resistance as evidence of high-level corruption or a pragmatic refusal to engage a superior force. While some justify the intervention on the grounds of "just war" principles and the moral necessity of removing a tyrant, critics argue that such extrajudicial actions dangerously undermine national sovereignty and could trigger long-term regional instability. Ultimately, the discourse suggests that the mission's success likely relied on a combination of tactical superiority and the regime's internal decay, leaving unresolved questions about international law and the legitimacy of the subsequent power structure.

21 comments tagged with this topic

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> And may tolerate a coupe instead The US is vulnerable to that scenario as well, even though the military’s willingness to comply with literally textbook illegal orders is not encouraging.
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Saying "The West is no threat to anyone" at the same time you're advocating for an invasion and abduction of a country's leader is certainly a position to hold. Not a very internally consistent or convincing one, though. And I suppose Vietnam never happened in your constructed reality.
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Nowhere near Maduro's by any reasonable threshold or metric. Not even the most hardcore TDS in-patients claim otherwise.
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Well, that's fine then, as long as the dictator you support murdered fewer people.
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The reporting suggests there was some kind of deal struck between the US and elements of the VZ administration, and even nuclear capability doesn't prevent that
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Yeah but those people read the popularity polls as well. If you kill or capture the leader, there isn’t much upside in retaliation against a massively more powerful enemy. The best move is to cozy up to whomever is in power next.
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I think "this kind of operation" refers to the entire "we bombed your capital and stole your President" thing, not just the cyber component of it. It seems extraordinarily unlikely we'd have attempted such a thing if Venezuela had nukes.
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Probably, but there is also some speculation usa had help on the inside, so it probably depends on the nature and pervasiveness of that help.
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I think by "this kind of operation" he means extrajudicially removing a sitting president (legitimate or not) of another country for trial elsewhere. Not cyber attack or espionage.
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the popular conspiracy theory among Russian opposition is that Maduro exit was negotiated, so he will do small time at a Fed club and would preserve significant amount of his money (at least couple hundreds of millions), and after completing the time will end up with his money in Russia/Belarussia. We can see that nobody was going to resist the operation in Venezuela, so it doesn't really matter that Venezuela doesn't have nukes. Using nukes isn't just a matter of pressing a button, it involves a lot of people and processes - thus any significant opposition inside the force or just widespread sabotage will make it unusable.
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It strikes me as completely possible that the exit was negotiated. The fact that they knew his exact location and "luckily" nabbed him right before he went into some kind of panic room / bunker is certainly... something. But it seems equally likely to me that he was sold out by somebody in the VZ government/military. And that the paltry military resistance was because they saw direct confrontation with the US as suicidal.
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I think it is kind of both - the exit was ultimately negotiated because most of the VZ government/military either sold him or at least abandoned him and showed no interest in any further support of him.
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80 of their guys died? Not just venuzuelans. If it was negotiated then maduro negotiated his own closest security forces to be killed as a cover. Not impossible but certainly in the tinfoil hat range of possibilities.
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Your tone is unnecessarily condescending and confrontational, but your point is reasonable with respect to Venezuela and Maduro. With Iran, North Korea, or Ukraine, the calculus is different.
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That's like arguing against the police arresting criminals because it will incentivize them to acquire weapons. The only consistent action for the US to take, given they - and much of the world - do not consider Maduro the legitimate President of Venezuela, was to remove him from power.
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And replace him with the just as illegitimate VP? What world is that consistent in?
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Terrible take in the 2nd premise of your argument. Is Venezuela a sovereign nation or a colony? Can similar logic be applied against Russia or even the US?
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The sovereignty of Venezuela is not the right argument here, because practical sovereignty is not absolute and there are just war grounds for Maduro's capture. The man was an awful tyrant. However , just because there are just war grounds for Maduro's capture per se doesn't mean the operation was justified by just war principles. It wasn't. It takes more than just the fact that the ruler is tyrannical to justify an operation like this. Operations like this can risk civil war and all sorts of horrible fallout that also need to be considered. There must be a realistic plan following the removal of the tyrannical leader. As always, justice must be upheld always. And of course there are the procedural and legal aspects that Trump totally ignored.
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I don't think anybody cares any bit about Maduro.
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This has happened because the party that rules Spain has ties to the dictatorship. This goes so far that one of the ministers of the government met in Spain with Delcy Rodriguez, bringing her a few briefcases of something that hasn't been explained yet, despite her being subject to a travel ban in the EU. Of course this is a progressive government so the EU said absolutely nothing about it.
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The only anomaly was military. As far as I can tell, Venezuela's AD was shut down, or told to shut down. Didn't the US use Chinooks? They're supposed to be loud. And AD didn't take even one out. If Venezuela as corrupt as most socialist countries, I have no doubt that someone in his inner circle gave him up. Back in the days of our version of socialism we had Indian politicians selling out for $100K, leave alone $50M.